Haze wrote:

BWs have it twice as hard as WWs, and ten times harder than RWs. Would making thirst a little more ruthless really make BW "easy mode"? Yes, it would be considerably easier, but if all the other classes are so much simpler to play as, it isn't so bad to assume that you should make that one class easier. (or every other class harder, but that's just ridicorrrus.)

You guys are talking about how you want it balanced.

The main class suffering is bm/bw.

If you increase thirst regen enough to make it easy for bm/bws, it's going to throw the balance out for other characters, giving them an unfair advantage. If thirst is changed AT ALL, I think the change should only affect bm/bws.

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It's not some huge unbalancing change. Every other class can manage thirst with the greatest of ease without stopping, the change is fine as it is.

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Probably won't work since he didn't decrease thirst lost per pot.

Oh, and unless your standing in town pot chugging for no reason, you'll probably be in battle mode eh heh heh heh

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I'll give you the point that Thirst seems to screw BMs especially, but consider what they can do. BMs have some of the most powerful magic in the game in their fully powered tier ones and their status spells.

A point of order on this though.

Tier 3's suck.

There are 3 Tier 2.5s.

BMs get: Saber, Temper, Blind, Scry.
RMs get: Cure, Refresh, Disencumber, Dispell, X Magic

It's difficult to decipher, it might be that they are unbalanced, or it might be that they are not a solo class.

Which they are not supposed to be.

Also to those who blasted my Wraith Bow thing, I played Abra just fine like that. You can't nuke 24/7, but with some food and a good party you shouldn't have to.

Strategic assaults. Not 'Blast Everything that Moves'.

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Also to those who blasted my Wraith Bow thing, I played Abra just fine like that. You can't nuke 24/7, but with some food and a good party you shouldn't have to.

Strategic assaults. Not 'Blast Everything that Moves'.

It was more us pointing out that partying wasn't really what we were talking about and that your strategy doesn't work anywhere except in moderately sized parties where you don't have to cure yourself, and fails to account for healing at all, which is a big part of why this topic exists in the first place.

BMs have some of the most powerful magic in the game in their fully powered tier ones and their status spells.

All of which is useless if someone counters their elements. Its not that hard to do, pretty much everyone with half a brain can at least nullify dark magic, and dark magic is supposed to be the pvp spell of choice...

I know non-elemental isn't possible or however that works, but BMs really need a spell that can't be nullified like that before you can throw around terms like "consider what they can do"

Also status spells really aren't all that great in most situations. I know in rare instances if you use your surroundings they can be, but 9/10 I see black wizards lose to melee characters, and no, not just me. The only time I've seen status spells useful is if you have your own knight or master standing by to dish out some damage, or if you're running away. Might as well get rid of black mages and just make a support class out of them, because when their elements get nullified, a support class is all they are.

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Locke wrote:

I'm an idiot

Locke: Yeah, great, flaming in Gaku's Lair, enjoy your vacation.

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I d/w two mana draining suffix knives on my rw for the sole reason of thirst. I put refresh on and go beat on monsters, once mana is up go magic crazy. I have to do this cuz I have so little mana and even with refresh I suffer thirst quite often without the knives. I also think we need the thirst to be altered to make it go down slower.

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Maybe we should just make an easy-to-get Osmose spell for BMs that works like Wraith weapons. The main issue is that BMs are really weak in physical combat, and have to rely heavily on magic. Even if they have a good weapon, it puts the blackmage in considerable danger since they're pretty much glass cannons. A bow is a good idea, but they can be tricky to come across

Before you say DW wraith knives, I'd like to point out that a BM's DW is the single-most difficult thing to prof in the entire game.

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Quoting the whole post cause it speaks to me deeply...

Lumino wrote:

I'll give you the point that Thirst seems to screw BMs especially, but consider what they can do. BMs have some of the most powerful magic in the game in their fully powered tier ones and their status spells.

Very true, but a RW's magic isn't exactly weak. Not to mention poison is excellent for pve, nothing but undead resists it.

A point of order on this though.

Tier 3's suck.

There are 3 Tier 2.5s.

Something I really wanted to comment on, but I couldn't find an appropriate video on youtube to applaud this xD. Really though, Icebolt and Chain Lightning are some of the most useful spells in the game when used well. In all honesty I'd give up tier 3's if all elements gave bw's 2.5's...

BMs get: Saber, Temper, Blind, Scry.
RMs get: Cure, Refresh, Disencumber, Dispell, X Magic

It's difficult to decipher, it might be that they are unbalanced, or it might be that they are not a solo class.

Which they are not supposed to be.

That logic seems to say every other class is designed to be better at soloing than BW's. I don't really think that's fair.

Also to those who blasted my Wraith Bow thing, I played Abra just fine like that. You can't nuke 24/7, but with some food and a good party you shouldn't have to.

Strategic assaults. Not 'Blast Everything that Moves'.

Wraithing works great in a big party actually. I personally might be missing 3.5 where you could have infinite mana (not literally obviously, but bw's had enough mana that a soul piece let me let off completely tier 3's non-stop) so I prefer to blast "everything that doesn't basically ignore magic" but using hi-ethers counteracts the huge mana burn.

Or if I'm lucky enough to have a RW willing to burn a ton of mana refreshing me every 5 or so minutes and I happen to have watermelons on me I can do the same with only using a tinc every once in a while if I keep it to tier 1's. Add a wraith bow and BAM.



The problem is these solutions require a party. A decently sized one as well but the difficulty with this comes when a BW is forced to solo.

EDIT: Noticed Aries post, if a bw gets low tier knives with wraith DWing won't need a lot of proffing. Saber is actually pretty amazing as far as dexterity boosts go so they won't need to prof is as much as Stella probably had to (cause I think she's using mid-level knives and doesn't get to rock saber). And DW is still pretty insane to prof on a RW.

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Regardless, BM get shafted no matter what. The absolute need to have a Wraith bow or something just screams imbalance. You have to look at it from a different perspective, not your biased perspective of being extremely adaptable. I do fine on my BW, but I can agree that they get screwed just because of thirst.

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Dean wrote:

Locke wrote:

I'm an idiot

God Dean's desperate...

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This forum is horrible. I have no mod powers here!!

Anyways why not make it so that stamina potions at least don't consume thirst (I'm assuming antidotes don't either but I've never used one really) and up the natural regen for a black mage? That way something minor and not game-breaking can be changed and tweaking the way black mages work will bring them back up to pace with the other classes. With all the powerful spells they're supposed to be slapping people with and their highest mana total I think just upping their regen would be neat, like half a mana-regen suffix (that way slapping on of the soul would be great but not as good as having of the will o' wisp, however good that thing is).

If no changes for this version, maybe add the mana regen effect to jobs that would leave the person fairly frail and very reliant on magic without the means to heal themselves.

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What if thirst only affected health-curing potions, and not ethers or stamina pots? Wouldn't that make more sense given its purpose, and balance it across all classes?

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Not for mana. I'd be unstoppable and never die during training. It'd have to at least be in effect for the sole fact of not letting other classes spam heal or spam tier 2's/3's onto monster swarms or towns without worry. Right now I have a flow I go with where I only have to use a tincture or ether when my meter's at least 90% full and it stops me from going crazy. Without it pretty much the entire point of thirst is gone for red and white wizards.

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A cool down timer instead of having pots affect thirst at all might work, just not by itself.

One you use a consumable, x units of time must pass before you are able to use a consumable again.

I've seen it work in other games.

Prevents chugging, eliminates thirst screw.

The problem with this is you would probably need a different cool-down for different items. One cool-down timer wouldn't work for everything.

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I never had a thirst problem as a BW.

whatevs

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Yeah, neither did I and quite a few other people I've asked.

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my personal opinion it doesnt really matter to me thirst is a issue once you chug 3-4 pots in a row but im saynig atleast increse the rate in regens or take it out alltogether and for black mages and thiefs stam pots are a issue even with a wayfer or two when you cc and you get speed boost your stam still drains somewhat fast so like i said just make the regen speed somewhat faster not by alot but just enough to where we dont have to wait about 10 minutes after a huge spawn that you had to pot chug on

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Regen speed was already increased and is remarkably quick in OW. This is quite an old topic.

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